Oleksiy Torokhtiy goes over important points of the Snatch Balance, Snatch Press and Overhead Squat.
He especially emphasises shoulder internal rotation to achieve a stable Overhead Squat (at around 5:00).
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Is there a biomechanist out there who can weigh in on the internal vs external rotation of shoulder in the overhead position? Is there a clear mechanical advantage of one method over the other? We see both styles in elite and amateur competitors, but is there a trend towards one over the other in the current era? I was trained to externally rotate, it feels comfortable, and feels like i can have a more upright bottom position with that form. That said, Chinese and ex-soviet countries seem to be emphasizing the internal rotation as a core principle of their technique and these are the countries leading the way in the sport at the moment. Any thoughts? Has anyone transitioned from one style to the other for instance?
amazing question
Chinese emphesize external rotation at the shoulder. Klokov f.e. does the same. And those: chinese, klokov… are very good at the snatch.
Anyway, check some competition snatches and you will see them with externaly rotated shoulders.
I have never seen internaly rotated shoulders as torokhtiy does at this video.
Slight correction: I have heard from multiple accounts in which Chinese coaches specifically taught internal rotation.
One of them here for example: https://allthingsgym.com/larrys-chinese-weightlifting-experience-part-1-snatches-squats/
that’s the one, Larry strikes again!
dude there’s an entire series on ATG with Chinese coaches extolling the virtues of internal rotation as reported by an ATG reader and lifter (i will find link later). Also Klokov’s overhead snatch position is almost identical to what Torokhtiy demonstrates?
There ARE clearly elite lifters who do both, and there are good coaches who coach in either school of thought–the question is, is one clearly better than the other and is there a trend toward one or the other in elite level competitors in the modern era?
Klokov internally rotates. Just google image Klokov Snatch and you’ll see.
In addition to the Chinese and Soviets, Ilya also has weighed in on the internal vs external shoulder debate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGdrq7FonYc&feature=youtu.be&t=172
I was taught external rotation initially and when I eventually tried internal, I immediately felt much stronger and more stable (full disclosure, I’m total novice lifter). Ilya’s main point here is about the weight on the joints, and I actually saw this just recently sitting at an angle behind a lifter in my gym holding the weight overhead (externally rotating shoulders): Her arms were bent back at the elbow.
The fact is, most peoples’ arms aren’t perfectly straight. So when fully extended horizontally with the palm facing up (externally rotated), my lower right arm, for example, juts out to the right. However, palm down (internal rotation) puts my lower arm and upper arm in a perfect line, and in a much stronger position, when holding weight.
The same principle is manifest in BJJ, where it’s best to control the wrist of someone you have in an arm bar to maintain internal rotation. Otherwise you can’t get the leverage, because their arm can roll and take on a “bent” form and you just can’t get them to tap (eg. GSP vs Dan Hardy). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vF6wVvY-wwY
Jesse awesome post. The case for internal rotation seems strong. That said there are still many great lifters with their elbow creases pointing to the skies. I’ve been weightlifting for 4 years and switching to internal rotation is very uncomfortable at this point so I’m not sure it’s worth the time to re-groove the new technique.
Internal shoulder rotation leads to supraspinatus tendons impingment.
I found this article did a good job of discussing the overhead shoulder rotation quandary.
http://bretcontreras.com/overhead-shoulder-rotation-quandary/
One thing I took away was that there seems to be ligaments in the shoulder that cause the shoulder to internally rotate when flexing the shoulder. I didn’t know that..
“The results of this study support Steindler’s conclusion that, during flexion of the humerus beyond the horizontal, forced inward rotation is caused by ligamentous tension”
http://physther.net/content/66/1/55.full.pdf
“Medial rotation of the shoulder accompanied active flexion in all subjects. Physical therapists should consider these results when the goal of treatment is to increase shoulder flexion.”
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/6463110/
Not sure it answers the question of internal vs external rotation, just that positionally internal rotation occurs during shoulder flexion. Using your muscles to apply an external or internal rotation torqure is something that is still unclear for me. I tend to go with whatever feels solid.
I believe the internal rotation makes sense because it’s easier to miss the snatch behind if the situation occurs without putting the elbows at risk. You should be flexible enough to lose the bar behind otherwise you can have bad accident. You already externally rotate the shoulders to finish the pull on the snatch, you fix the bar over your traps with the shoulders internally rotated for obvious reasons. You have more muscles supporting the lockout.