Here are some recent news items from the world of weightlifting that have piled up over the past weeks.
In an interview at the end of August Matthias Steiner critizised the lax doping controls.
There is too much looking away and downplaying for my taste.
He especially critizied Russia.
When it comes to international controls that were set and comissioned by the IWF and its president Dr. Tamas Ajan, in recent years there have been some very large inconsistencies that can be seen in the statistics. In this system the Russians didn’t have any controls during their training this year.
Ouch, you rarely hear somebody speak out this publicly about it.
Talking about Iran’s and Russia’s numerous positive tests in the past he says
I have to deal with athletes from nations where, how shall I put it – the road to performance seems to be a different one than from where I am from.
Update: via IronMind
The German Weightlifting Federation (BVDG) has called for the resignation of International Weightlifting Federation (IWF) president Dr. Tamas Ajan based on what the BVDG describes as the IWF’s substandard drug testing program and the IWF’s attempts to bully any who challenge its policies.
In fact, a quick independent check of the IWF data shows that approximately 67% of the men’s weightlifting medalists at the 2012 Olympics had either zero or one test from January–July of this year, a critical period in terms of preparation for the London Games.
Update: here are the letters between Thomas Ajan and the BVDG (German WL federation).
In other news, the reason that Ivan Stoitsov and Velichko Cholakov didn’t lift in London was probably not because of injuries and tooth aches.
Polska Sztanga reports that the president of the Bulgarian Weightlifting Federation, Nedelchov Kolev made them a good offer that convinced them to return to Bulgaria.
Update: That turned out to be false, just as the news about Abadjiev returning.
“They always write lies and slander” . Bulgarian weightlifters Ivan Stoitsov (85 kg) and Velichko Cholakov (+105 kg) can finish his career in the national team of Azerbaijan. According apasport.az with reference to the Bulgarian press, this is related to the appearance they desire once again to defend the honor of his country’s national team.
I’m liking this news round up, good work.
Hey Germans, stop crying and bitching!!!
i can understand him. he had around 10 unannounced training-controls this year before london.. the whole russian team had not a single one.
regardless of whether you are pro or against controls and no matter steiner himself is clean or not – this is inequitable.
the truth is steiner is out of shape since beijing because he preferred to party and show up in the media. now everything he does is talk bad about his oponents. it´s bad sportsmanship, nothing else. he could have had a great carreer but the way things happened is his own fault and has nothing to do with the others being on drugs or not. just my opinion and i am german so i would like a german lifter to be succesful but the way steiner behaves he doesn´t deserve it!
“the truth is steiner is out of shape since beijing because he preferred to party and show up in the media.”
Those are some big claims, show some evidence of occasions where he skipped training in order to party?
“he could have had a great carreer but the way things happened is his own fault and has nothing to do with the others being on drugs or not”
Who are you to say he didnt have a good career? Does being an olympic champion and world champion not constitute a great career?
It totally has to do with others being on drugs. They have a distinct proven advantage that countries with strict drug testing dont have. This is completely undeniable.
Is not a secret to anyone that sport -nowadays- is very well tied to politics and media.
Easy to point fingers when living in one of the foremost countries in respect to pharmacological infrastructure and development and thus having access to untraceable designer steroids and optimal medical treatment with undetectable mikro-dosages… Also, let’s not forget that having diabetes (even though it’s a serious condition, no doubt about that) and thus being able to freely use Insuline, is most surely beneficial for the Super-Heavyweight Class as well. Just think of Lance Armstrong and his sanctioned usage of Testosteron shots to compensate for his one missing testicle or the many Tour de Farce (pun intended) cyclists with “diagnosed” asthma and prescribed Salbutamol allowance…
Ever really looked at the mentioned statistics? Some interesting facts:
1) The mentioned controls german athletes go through are only UN-announced during or just prior to competition. Depending on the doping substance, as little as 8h suffice to remain traceless and “doping-free”, so if someone is regularly tested in the mornings, he/she only needs to inject in the afternoon, to remain unscathed.
2) German Weightlifters have NEVER been tested positive, not even false-positive, which is statistically impossible due to the chemical nature of the tests and the truly large number of tests conducted in Germany. A certain, but small amount of erroneous positive tests, resulting in a double-check with the B-Sample, has to happen – this is system-immanent! – if it doesn’t occur there are only two options:
– Tested Samples are found to be positive, but hushed up.
– Tests are not conducted according to protocol, so have no scientific validity whatsoever.
Which is worse? The liars or the inepts…
Something not being quite right is even more obvious, once you know that the Team Doctor for German Weightlifters, is also in the Medic Commission of the NADA… in second generation by the way. Playing both sides? Probably.
How come most of the succesful german athletes still origin from what used to be the German Democratic Republic, with it’s well documented history of government-funded and -endorsed doping system? Easy, the old structures remained, the coaches haven’t changed and the doping is probably not as bad as it used to be, but still fully integrated wherever and whenever a sport turns competitive. Why change a winning number? Just take a look at Robert Harting’s (Discus) coach and his credentials.
Speaking of which: did you know that in Germany promising goal-keepers or volleyball-players in their early teens are openly offered the use of testosteron and growth-hormones by either team doctors or family physicians, if their parents would have been considered too small in stature for high-performance sports? No sanctions whatsoever and these are children we’re talking about! For all the doubters: I know several of these cases both professionally and personally.
Steiner is absolutely correct in pointing out the many doping-positive athletes in countries of the former Soviet Union, nothing new about that, but what I find astounding is which substances are found: almost all of them antique stuff from the late 70’s and early 80’s! What this indicates, more than anything else, is that wealthier countries use modern doping substances, that are either not yet on the “Prohibited Substances List” of the WADA, or are still not traceable, and that poorer countries have to stick to old supplements and thus get caught. That’s not Fairplay either.
Ever wonder why US-american Weightlifters have truly impressive training lifts, but you don’t really see them on TV on international stages? Easy again: no doping-tests at all back home, but once they turn up in international competitions, they have to lay off the juice and suddenly perform way below their average. They’re not alone in this, though.
Ever take a close look at the bulging muscle mass on one of the Trainers of the French Weightlifting Team? Think that’s natural? Look again. Benjamin Hennequin’s (Weightlifting/France) or Robert Förstemann’s (Sprint Track Racing/Germany) thighs are more than indicative as well, but Förstemann even has the audacity to claim that he suffers from a (recently diagnosed) Myostatine Gene Defect. Sure, whatever. And don’t get me started on Bodybuilders (even the “natural” ones), Strongmen, Powerlifters or Crossfit, well at least Crossfitters use EPO as well…
Let’s not be blind: None of these high-achieving guys/girls are clean, they know it and we (ought to) know it as well!
However: does all of this reduce the value of the accomplishments in sports of successful athletes? Not really, since all athletes in any competitive sport worldwide are juiced to the hilt, so it’s an almost level playing field. Is Usain Bolt doped? Sure, just as everybody else coming in behind him. Would he still win, if all competitors, including himself, were doping-free? Absolutely, he may have a “bad” start due to his size, but his running style is remarkably efficient with high-cadenced, long strides. That’s genetics, training technique and you can’t buy either from your trustworthy dealer around the corner. Maybe Bolt wouldn’t win the 100m in way under 10s, but still 8 steps ahead of all the others nonetheless. Would chinese lifters still be top of the pack? Probably, since they put a lot – and I mean a LOT – of emphasis on absolutely spotless technique and have loads of young talents to recruit from. Would Steiner then have won Olympic Gold? Certainly, maybe with 150Kg less in the total, but still with winning weights.
Should we stop watching weightlifting (or other) competitions and not cheer on our favourites then? Of course not, but remember that asking athletes to show superhuman stunts, will force them into using supplements that make them exactly that: “superhuman”. Maybe it would be better to forget about “World Record” and focus more on “Seasons Best”?
If you have serious issues with Doping however, lay off the 4th cup of coffee or Cola, because that’s doping too. Don’t take pills against your headache so you can go to work, because that is an unfair advantage over your colleagues as well. What about the cooly relaxed and virtuos piano player whose music you adore? He’s probably on Beta-Blockers during big concerts to cope with the pressure. Best college student of his faculty? Check for amphetamines during the learning phase and Beta-Blockers, with maybe a hint of Cocain, prior to exams. Actors bulking up quickly for “300”, then looking untrained even quicker, including the Gynecomastia? That’s not a result of flipping tires and hitting stuff with a sledgehammer, that’s forgetting the Estrogen-Blocker after stopping with the Testosterone injections…
None of this is hearsay, by the way, just check the scientific literature, the facts are all there.
What all of us need to realize, is that Doping is not a problem in Sports, it’s a problem of our society and maybe even of our nature. Since taking the shortcut was evolutionary beneficial for millions of years, why change this all of a sudden for morals we invented max. 3.000 years ago?
Do I care whether someone is doping? Not really, if they’re adult. It’s their body, their
health and their choice, plus there’s worse ways to feed your family, if you
make a living of it.
Just don’t lie into my face, when I see you losing
and gaining muscle-mass (and strength) every couple of months, your voice
is two octaves deeper, the hands got bigger even though you’re over 30
and your back looks like a shotgun target… Am I impressed, if you bench 50Kg’s or squat 100Kg’s more? Nope, because I know it’s just a matter of time until you’re a lot weaker (again), including the depression and prolonged gym-absence, plus your ever-returning “issue with the right schoulder”. I know it makes snatching difficult, but what about your legs? Can’t you keep training those? 😀
Lots of good points raised here. Good Read.
You take a lot of assumptions which is not very scientific. In the giant essay you provided nothing but your own opinions. Despite the fact its obvious doping is an issue you could at least try to point out HOW its a problem. Now if you knew anything you would know that steiner actually has a legit point
The thing is some countries have less strict testing which DOES make it unfair.
German TV had a look at doping prevention in weightlifting. They showed the test lists of the IWF – International Weightlifting Federation which can be found here.
[url=http://www.iwf.net/downloads/]Lists[/url]
If you for example look at Om Yun Chol the 56kg winner, you can see that he was never tested in 2011 at an international event and his first test in 2012 was at the end of June. The athletes would normally be tested by their national doping agency but North Korea and for example Kazakhstan don’t have one. Kazakhstan however is part of a regional asian anti doping agency which operates out of Uzbekistan…
These two countries alone have won 7 gold and 1 bronze medal in weightlifting even though nobody knows what their athletes have done over the last years.
Make it fair for all the athletes
You make a lot of assumptions which is not very scientific. In that giant essay you provided nothing but your own opinions. Obviously doping is an issue but you can at least show how its a problem. Steiner is actually making a legit point
the thing is some countries have less strict testing which DOES make it unfair.
German TV had a look at doping prevention in weightlifting. They showed the test lists of the IWF – International Weightlifting Federation which can be found here.
[url=http://www.iwf.net/downloads/]Lists[/url]
If you for example look at Om Yun Chol the 56kg winner, you can see that he was never testet in 2011 at an international event and his first test in 2012 was at the end of June. The athlets would normally be tested by their national doping agency but North Korea and for example Kazakhstan don’t have one. Kazakhstan however is part of a regional asian anti doping agency which operates out of Uzbekistan…
These two countries alone have won 7 gold and 1 bronze medal in weightlifting even though nobody knows what their athletes have done over the last years.
Make it fair for all the athletes
this man speaks the truth
“Steiner is actually making a legit point the thing is some countries have less strict testing which DOES make it unfair.”
Did I ever disagree on this point? I mentioned that german athletes are indeed tested often (“the truly large number of tests conducted in Germany”), and that’s exactly why the absolute non-ocurrence of even false-positive tests is so remarkable. What’s the use of many tests per athlete, if what you test for, is not what they use? Or if the exact hour of being tested is known well in advance? To my knowledge a publication (1st author mentioned below) concerning exactly this problem with lacking false-positive tests is under way and in press.
I also mentioned that other nations don’t test their athletes at all, so both of us are actually agreeing with Steiner. Speaking of: small countries sometimes don’t even have the necessary funds for a National Olympic Committee, so why should they invest in a NADA?
The IWF link you provided is the same source I get some of the testing-statistics data from by the way, even though I was more interested in Akkaev and Klokov, since higher weight-classes tend to use higher amounts of doping substances, especially anabolic steroids*, since muscular development (resulting in larger body weight) is not so much of an issue and these athletes should thus be more prone to being tested positive, if tested at all, that is. Common Testosterone derived products* for example are relatively easy to identify, whereas testing for HGH (apparently preferred by lower weight-classes?) is still a big problem.
Another issue is that nations test their own athletes out-of-competition and their own athletes plus the competitors in-competition and thus it instantly becomes a matter of national pride, if an athlete is found to be positive. Ben Johnson and Carl Lewis ring a bell? Even if the tests are done for an international agency, the tests themselves are performed mostly by local companies, that are trusted, but not really monitored. Chapeau to US-Agencies with the L. Armstrong case by the way! Maybe british athletes should be tested simultaneously by french agencies (and vice versa) as well? The Chinese test the USA and are in turn tested by Germany for example? And all tests are done in a double-blind fashion and with no reference to the athlete or origin of the sample? An organizing hell, but at least it would be a real attempt at true fairness…
What you also need to take into account is the role in society of a specific sport and thus the pool of participants that a NOC can recruit from. Weightlifting for example is widely accepted in Russia and (other former Soviet Union States) as a serious sport, in Germany it used to be regarded more as a bit of a freak show, especially with the omnipresence of Soccer. Applied to Athletics that’s exactly what R. Harting criticized in his press conference after winning Olympic Gold.
How else do you explain that comparatively small countries like Norway and Finnland have outstanding Javelin-Throwers? Well, Javelin is basically their national sport. What about the Netherlands and their favourite pasttime Ice Speed Skating? I’d say they are incredibly succesful, for such a tiny country compared to the USA for example. Or take cuban baseball…
Stating own opinions? Sure, isn’t that what all of us do, even as scientists?
Assumptions? Well, that’s usually the starting point for any study, but I’d have to disagree on this, let’s leave it at “pretty well informed” and “making well-educated guesses”. Maybe it comes from having studied Pharmacy and Biochemistry plus working/training with high-performance athletes? You’re just going to have to take this on good faith though, since I’m obviously not going to start mentioning my name or listing private, even if professional, details here…
I have to admit, that I tried to keep my comments pretty general though; happy to realize this forum has readers that want a list of cited/referenced Literature. You may find this list of value?
http://www.spomed.sport.uni-mainz.de/378.php
Plus, you might want to check out Prof. Dr. Werner Franke’s (Heidelberg) publications as well (sorry, couldn’t find an easy to access list like the link provided above).
Cheers!
PS: One doesn’t need to prove the existence of Gravity over and over again, to know that the apple will fall earthward from it’s tree. There is such a thing as “decisive circumstantial evidence”, and yes, even in hard-fact based Science.
Are you the same “ghosthalo2” that’s talking about doping-cycles with Testosteron, Clenbuterol, Dianabol and even Melanotan (for that nice, “sun”-browned skin look), etc. on the “prohormoneforum.com” and “elitefitness.com” webpages (http://www.prohormoneforum.com/search.php?searchid=1196347)?
If so, then THAT explains a LOT… and not in your favour… 😀 😀 😀
Every winner in weightlifting and sports in general is not using doping.
for a scientist (internet phd most likely though) you’re not really arguing your points well, not to mention the fact that you seem to have no idea on the stringency of certain federations wrt drug testing. The USADA is among the strictest when it comes to testing their athletes so it’s inane to suggest US lifters fail to make international competitions due to problems coming off cycle. i mean if you’re going to write long rambling tirades on doping issues on a site like this, might I at least suggest you get this shit correct.
Thanks for the good write up. It’s nice to have comments that have more effort than your average youtube reply. For some of us, what you’re saying is hard to hear and believe. But it’d be too dismissive to say all your information is based off a pipe dream (though i’m not convinced my geek friends in my cohort are pill poppers ha..ha.).
Say a kid has the right body, moves, training path and coach. Do u reckon someone like him would ever win in the 105kg’s these days, without ped?
Thank you very much indeed!
It’s nice to have a “long rambling (?) tirade (?)” appreciated and it’s truly a sad fact that being able to hide behind anonymous user names is mostly enjoyed solely for making derisive comments on the Internet. Anyway, I admit that it’s an uncomfortable “truth” and pretty hard to believe, if you’re not somehow involved more-or-less directly, and it’s definitely a blow to find out just how many “heroes from childhood” turned out to be “cheaters” in the end. An example: even the more mental-strength related accomplishments of Alain Robert in freesolo-climbing Skyscrapers worldwide, took on a new perspective, once he was arrested in Texas for trespass on One Houston Center and the police found him in the posession of Clobazam, a drug that is also used for patients that suffer from acute and chronic anxiety. Even though it seemed to have been prescribed for other medical reasons (prevention of epileptic seizures) and the charges were dropped, it still kind of makes you wonder, if it wasn’t used purposefully to reduce the fears of falling/heights/failure as well.
Be that as it may, to answer your question: it’s theoretically possible, but very, very unlikely in the current system. Everything would have to be absolutely more than perfect to come close to, let alone be able to overcome, the advantages PED-using athletes have. This encompasses many sports and all weightclasses, it doesn’t necessarily
apply to sports that require high motoric skills, but very little
muscular effort (Skateboarding and children like Tom Schaar standing a 1080 for instance).
The obvious advantage of using PED’s is not so much the unphysiological enhancement of muscle growth or enhanced strengh and aggressiveness in training and competition (the latter could be achieved naturally in situations of high stress resulting in high release of Testosterone, Adrenaline, etc., for very short and not consecutive periods of time – imagine the difficulties in timing that exactly in and for competition), but also, and maybe predominantly, the significant shortening of recuperation phases from heavy training or healing time from injuries (which are bound to happen sooner or later, no matter how careful the athlete and flawless the technique). These are obvious advantages that are most likely not achievable without tampering with the body’s natural physiology. The simple fact that people take PED’s knowing the full extent of (possible) risks to their health, is already pretty indicatory of really how much their use improves performance.
Since you really sound interested (and open-minded), you might want to download this report on the worldwide trafficking of Doping substances, including pharmacological Companies covertly pre-testing products on children in Third-World-Countries (right-hand side, under the caption Download Center).
http://www.wada-ama.org/en/World-Anti-Doping-Program/Governments/Investigation–Trafficking/Trafficking/Donati-Report-on-Trafficking/
Many of my so-called “assumptions” are listed here:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2453307/
plus a more general publication on the topic:
https://www.mja.com.au/journal/2006/184/3/4-use-and-misuse-performance-enhancing-substances-sport
Not really entertaining reads, but informational. 🙂
Matthias Steiner won beijing with 461kg total / Salimi won london with 455…. sure…. someone was doped…
I know this is an old thread, but it has been brought up by the German commentary for the 2014 EWC again.
I think the complains were a bit disingenuous if you look at the actual statistics:
http://www.iwf.net/wp-content/uploads/downloads/2013/01/List_Of_Tested_Competitors_2012_Men.pdf
Some facts:
JEON Sang Guen (4th) was tested 3x in total, 1x OOC, and tested in March and June
ALBEGOV Ruslan (3th) was tested 2x in total, 0x OOC, and tested in April
ANOUSHIRAVANI HAMLABAD Sajjad (2nd) was tested 6x in total, 2x OOC, and tested in March, April, June
SALIMIKORDASIABI
Behdad (1st) was tested 5x in total, 2x OOC, and tested in March, April and June
Based on this it’s poor conduct to complain about lack of testing in Jan-July. Call them fake or corrupt, but not non-existing.